The Palestinian Statehood Bill in the House of Lords2025年03月14日

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On March 14, I observed the debate on the Palestinian Statehood Bill in the House of Lords. Through the introduction of Lord Alderdice (video 2), I was able to sit right next to the chamber (photo 2). Lord Alderdice is a friend of Alon Leal, former Israel Ambassador to South Africa whom I invited to an Initiatives of Change conference in Japan last November.

Palestine is recognized as a state by 145 of the 193 UN member states, but not by the G7 countries including Japan. Japan, however, supports the UN resolution upgrading Palestine to observer state status. Japan treats the State of Palestine as an “autonomous region scheduled for future recognition,” and it has an embassy in Japan.

　The bill was introduced by Baroness Northover (video 1) and 33 MPs spoke on the bill. Although all members except those representing the government and parties had only 3 minutes to speak, each speaker was well-informed, and the level of the legislators was high. Most of the legislators were in favour of the bill, but some were cautious, saying that recognition should not favour Hamas or that now was not the right time. After the remarks by the legislators, Lord Purvisk (Foreign Affairs, Liberal Democrat, Video 3) and Lord Callanan (Shadow Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office Minister, Conservative, Video 4) made the final remarks. Then Baroness Chapman (Deputy Foreign office Minister, Labour Party, Video 5) presented the Government’s position. She concluded, “I do not support this Bill today. This Government are committed to recognise a Palestinian state, which we will do not at the end of a process, but at the point at which recognition by the United Kingdom would have the greatest effect".

　Baroness Northover gave concluding remarks. (Video 6)

　Below is a minute of those five speakers.

Baroness Northover (Bill introducer, Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, thank you for being here today for my Private Member’s Bill on the recognition of Palestine. In the light of recent proposals by President Trump and huge global instability, I think that this Bill has become even more vital. The idea that Gaza should be cleared out and its population moved to other countries to become an American riviera is deeply shocking. My Bill would require the Government to recognise Palestine as a sovereign and independent state on pre-1967 lines, just as almost 150 of the 193 UN countries have done. Some say that recognition is merely symbolic, not changing anything on the ground, but recognition has importance—that Palestinians have the right to self-determination, national rights and the legal benefits of that, just like Israelis.

Some say that it is too late: the Swiss cheese effect of Israeli settlements, roads, walls and checkpoints in the Occupied Palestinian Territories means that a contiguous Palestinian state is no longer viable. The actions and words of the current Israeli Government seem intent on making it even less likely. Several Israeli Ministers have been clear that they will never accept such an outcome.

Nevertheless, most countries, including the UK, remain committed to a two-state solution. Probably most speakers today, including the Minister, will support this, but if it is to be delivered it becomes urgent to take it forward, lest it becomes impossible, with ramifications both for Palestinians and for the long-term future security of Israel.

Some say that recognition now would be seen as a reward for the Hamas terrorists who carried out the atrocities of 7 October. Absolutely not: this would be the long-overdue recognition of a state for the Palestinian people, not for a particular group. As Sir Vincent Fean, former British consul-general in Jerusalem, has said:

“The voices of moderation on both sides need encouragement”.

They need the hope of a political process. As three Israeli former ambassadors—who, by bravely speaking out, face much opposition—have said,

“recognition would not benefit the Palestinians alone. At this point in time, there can be no greater contribution to peace and security for us Israelis as well”.

Britain, of course, has a special responsibility. The 1917 Balfour Declaration was made here. Balfour spoke of a national homeland for Jewish people in Palestine, but he also spoke about safeguarding the

“civil and religious rights of … non-Jewish communities”.

Israel was recognised in 1948, in the wake of appalling Nazi horrors and centuries of persecution, but no state was established alongside for the displaced Palestinians. This was never likely to be settled and stable, and so it has proved.

We know that Israeli Governments have opposed Palestinian sovereignty and sought to freeze out those countries, most recently Norway and Ireland, that have recognised Palestine. The former ambassadors state:

“Reluctance by key western states to recognise Palestine has fed Israel’s misguided belief that the bestowal of Palestinian independence is its prerogative, to be conferred when the Palestinians meet its requirements”.

But it cannot be the case that an established state should be able to veto the recognition of a neighbour in its own territories. Neither can this be subject to negotiation and conditions.

In 2019, Luxembourg called for the EU to recognise Palestine. Its Foreign Minister said:

“Recognising Palestine as a state would be neither a favour nor a carte blanche, but rather a mere recognition of the right of the Palestinian people to their own state. It would not be meant against Israel”,

but a measure intended to pave the way for a two-state solution.

In 2011, William Hague, the then Foreign Secretary—and now the noble Lord, Lord Hague—stated:“The United Kingdom judges that the Palestinian Authority largely fulfils criteria for UN membership, including statehood”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/11/11; col. 290.]

Palestine was granted observer status at the UN General Assembly in 2012.

In 2014, the Commons voted for recognition, with the Minister’s support. In putting that Motion, Grahame Morris MP argued:

“Recognition is not an Israeli bargaining chip; it is a Palestinian right … As it stands, Israel has little motivation or encouragement … to enter into meaningful negotiations”.—[Official Report, Commons, 13/10/14; col. 64.]

Alan Duncan, as Minister, concluded that recognition was

“the other half of the commitment that our predecessors in this House made as part of the British mandate in the region”.

This was not, he argued, about recognising a particular Government:

“It is states that are recognised, not Governments”.—[Official Report, Commons, 13/10/14; cols. 71-72.]

In 2017, this House’s International Relations Committee stated:

“The Government should give serious consideration to now recognising Palestine as a state, as the best way to show its determined attachment to the two-state solution”.

It is my party’s position to recognise Palestine. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, as Labour’s foreign affairs spokesperson, stated repeatedly Labour’s commitment to the two-state solution. Thus, in 2024, he said that we need to

“give hope to that process and move towards recognising a Palestinian state, rather than waiting for the end of the process”.—[Official Report, 5/3/24; col. 1539.]

It is something with which the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, as Foreign Secretary, appeared to agree in early 2024, until reduced back to the traditional government line. As the noble Lord, Lord Collins, noted,

“when the Foreign Secretary made the original statement, he was very clear that we need to show irreversible progress towards a two-state solution … My right honourable friend David Lammy welcomed the Foreign Secretary’s comments, arguing that recognition should not wait for the final status agreement but should be part of efforts to achieve one”.—[Official Report, 13/2/24; cols. 148-49.]

The 2024 Labour Party manifesto stated:

“Palestinian statehood is the inalienable right of the Palestinian people. It is not in the gift of any neighbour and is also essential to the long-term security of Israel”.

So, to my very straightforward Bill. Clause 1 requires the recognition of Palestine

“as a sovereign and independent state on the basis of the pre-1967 borders, and the inalienable right of the Palestinian people to self-determination in the State of Palestine”.

The wording is taken from UN Security Council and General Assembly resolutions, specifying in the UN’s own terms what it means to be a recognised state. Clause 1(2) specifies that “pre-1967 borders”

“has the same meaning as in resolution 76/10 (2021) of the UN General Assembly”

and other such resolutions. Clause 2 recognises the mission of Palestine in London as “a full diplomatic mission”. Clause 3 requires the Secretary of State to report to Parliament within two months of the passage of the Act on steps taken to implement it.

This is all very familiar and all in line with what other countries have done: to recognise Palestine according to the pre-1967 borders, with any change to that to be achieved through negotiation. For those who argue that we cannot recognise a state without settled borders, we recognise Israel, rightly, but Israel itself does not declare its own borders; indeed, it claims the territory of other states. Britain recognised Israel in 1950 without the defining of borders or its capital; it did not wait for the outcome of negotiations.

This is solely a bilateral issue between Britain and Palestine. Labour’s stance in opposition created the hope that it would recognise Palestine, but hope for the Palestinians always seems to be over the horizon.

So if we hear once again that it is not the right time, in effect denying the same rights to self-determination that Israeli citizens have, then I will find myself thinking back, among other things, to a visit I made to Saudi Arabia with other parliamentarians in the mid-2000s. It was a time when the rights of women there were severely curtailed. In a break in our meetings, I went down to the pool in our hotel. “You can’t swim now”, I was told, “It isn’t the ‘woman’s hour’”. “When is the woman’s hour?”, I asked. “There isn’t one”, came the reply.

Recognising two states should have happened long ago. My short little Bill seeks to rectify that. I beg to move.

Lord Alderdice (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Northover has done this House and the Government a great service by raising the possibility in her Bill of redressing a profound injustice with which we as a country have colluded for decades.

The implementation of UN Resolution 181, agreed almost 80 years ago in 1947, has been obstructed. The State of Israel came into being, but neither the state of Palestine nor the special status of Jerusalem have emerged. Has the wish for a Palestinian state gone away? Well, the Jewish wish for a state survived for around 2,000 years, so why do they imagine that the Palestinian wish for a state will disappear? As the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, and some others, have said, the global trajectory is increasingly towards support for Palestine and loss of support for Israel’s position and indeed for countries such as the United States and the United Kingdom, whose stand is damaging their international reputation.

Those who oppose recognition criticise the other side, quoting the very real and horrible facts of terrorist outrages, quoting legal objections and obstacles, giving special regard to one side in the conflict, blaming the other and giving a veto to a Government who have no intention of producing a peaceful outcome. I listen to this and I have heard it before. I heard it in Northern Ireland—precisely the same voices and sentiments from unionists who had governed Northern Ireland for 50 years. It is often the same people in the same parties who are saying the same things that they said about Northern Ireland, and indeed, in some cases, South Africa. Eventually, the British Government stopped accepting a veto on progress and indicated that they wanted to see a change. Without that change of attitude, there would have been no peace process, no end to the terrorism and no Good Friday agreement.

I say to the Minister that those who reject this Bill and the other opportunities that are offered will find that history will judge them harshly. I have seen it; I remember speaking with a friend in South Africa who said, “The Broederbond will never allow it”; I grew up in a part of the United Kingdom where it seemed clear that the Orange Order and those who supported it would never allow a pluralist Government and a change of approach. But it came, and if there is one message of the last few weeks, it is that when the dam bursts, it does not burst gradually.

Lord Purvis of Tweed (Foreign Affairs, Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, there are times when we are reminded that we are all privileged to have a voice in public life. I am grateful to my noble friend for giving us the opportunity to have what has been a generally very thoughtful and respectful debate on a vital issue. It is a vital issue of British foreign policy, but also of the very nature of peace.

I say to those who have got close to suggesting that there are some motives behind my noble friend’s proposition linked with some form of emboldening terrorism, that no one in this House supports terrorism. No one in the British Parliament supports terrorism and we should not even get close to suggesting that that is part of the motive.

Some have argued in the debate that recognition will embolden extremists. The failure to have recognition, some have argued, has already emboldened the extremists we see within the political system in Israel. The answer, which I would assume should have consensus across all elements in this debate, is to remove the incentive for extreme positions on a situation which is, I understand, the settled will of the United Kingdom—that there will be a Palestinian state.

Therefore, my noble friend should be commended for bringing her Bill to this House, allowing us to debate the need to make rapid progress on a Palestinian state and the fact that the United Kingdom can play a very significant part through recognition. There has been reference to groups; the noble Lord, Lord Katz, referred to Yachad. I am a great admirer of its work. There is also the Britain Palestine Project, which is the former Balfour Project. There have been many UK-based organisations which are part of considered debates on this issue. That is to our overall credit in this country.

It has also been interesting to me that no one in this debate—not a single person—has denied that Palestine is an occupied territory, such occupation being illegal under international law. That is helpful. There seems to be a complete consensus on that in this debate. My party takes the view, over many years of consideration, that recognition is the platform for the conclusive negotiations of a longer-term arrangement between Palestine and Israel, not a conclusion where one state determines the status of the other—especially, in the context of what my noble friend Lord Alderdice said, when one of those states is illegally occupying the territory of another. That creates a distortion of incentive in any form of looking at a sustainable peace for the long term.

The issue for some—including, I suspect, for the Minister—is timing. Timing is policy in itself. Therefore, we should recognise this. I want to quote from Hansard, referring to Middle East peace:

“the Palestinian problem lies at the very heart of the issue. The objective here must be full and genuine autonomy for these areas as a step towards determining their final status. Nothing would do more to help these negotiations, to build trust in the area, and to win the consent of the Palestinians than for Israel to cease the expansion of its settlements in the occupied territories.”.—[Official Report, 14/5/1979; col. 240.]

This was Lord Carrington, in his first speech as Foreign Secretary when the Thatcher Government was formed in 1979.

As the noble Lord, Lord Soames, highlighted, that was the year of UN Security Council Resolution 446, prohibiting illegal settlements. They numbered not more than 15,000 people then. As he said, 45 years later, it is 750,000. He outlined the intent of certain Israeli Government Ministers—not a gesture, but intent—for that to be expanded further. Therefore, timing is of critical importance as policy. We will only repeat the failures of the past if we do not act.

The situation on the ground, some noble Lords have argued, prevents us acting now. When did that situation on the ground start? Was it 1979, or in 2025? Some in the debate have suggested that the conditions on the ground now—the presence of Hamas, and the continued displacement and threats—are a reward for terrorism. That is surely an argument to suggest that the current ceasefire is a mistake, but I have not heard them say that in this debate. I wonder why not. Do they feel that it is a grave error and legitimisation of Hamas for the US Government to have sat down bilaterally with Hamas last week, without that being part of any structured involvement of the Palestinian Authority or brokered talks through Qatar?

Some noble Lords have argued in the debate that, in the absence of finalised agreements on border areas, resource access, infrastructure challenges, displaced people, proposed land swaps that have not been agreed, and lack of normalisation at the start of the political process with its nearest neighbour, the time is not right —"the gesture”, as some have suggested. But if those criteria, set by them in this debate, were in place on 18 February 2008, we would not have recognised Kosovo. In recognising Kosovo, the then Labour Government said that the UK was doing so when others did not because they had made the judgment that it would be impossible to see a return to Serbian control. Some would argue, presumably, that that position should have been denied for South Sudan on 9 July 2011.

The situation on the ground is a political one. The question is whether we want to see two parties negotiate on an equivalent basis regarding an incentive for the future, as the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Bolton, indicated. In many ways, the case is stronger for Palestinian recognition. I was not surprised that this debate had two eminent lawyers speaking in it; I was equally unsurprised that they took a contrary view. But a political view must see that Palestine has a defined territory, recognised in customary UK foreign policy, and in trade and partnership agreements between His Majesty’s Government and Palestine, based on historical borders, as my noble friend indicated. Palestine does have a permanent population within boundaries, as the UK has recognised through direct diplomatic consular representation of UK interests in those territorial areas. It has a Government, who we have supported on a consular, technical and funding basis, and a capacity to enter into relations with other states, which we know is happening now. All the criteria of the 1933 Montevideo convention apply more strongly to Palestine than they did to Kosovo in 2008 or South Sudan in 2011.

The noble Lord, Lord Katz, whom I respect, spoke clearly and sincerely. He suggested that this should happen at the end of the process, but not now. I have visited Israel—a visit promoted by Yachad—and I met others who took a position distinct from his. For me, the question is who now rebuilds from the rubble and who now negotiates a future for both states, where trauma is intense, where there are still extreme players, and where the ones with the highest stakes have a mutual need for security. It cannot be President Trump or his envoy, negotiating directly with Hamas; it has to be on the basis of there being recognised states from a United Kingdom perspective.

Before I close, I want to go back to 1979 and 1980, because what was the context then is the context now. The position on the ground is of importance when it comes to ownership and respect; we need to find a way to reduce extremist narratives, as there can only ever be a political solution. The year after Lord Carrington made his speech, David Steel led a Liberal delegation to the Middle East, in September and October 1980. The delegation met President Assad, the Prime Minister of Lebanon, His Majesty King Hussein, Shimon Peres and President Sadat. I close by quoting from the conclusion of that visit. On the question of recognition of Palestinian rights, the delegation said:

“The delegation is convinced that no lasting international agreement is either possible or just which does not recognise the rights of the Palestinian people. At the core of that recognition is the creation of a national Palestinian identity, free to determine its future relations with its neighbours. As the Lebanese Foreign Minister Mr Boutros put it, ‘The homeland is the beginning of a solution.’”

The time is now, not in another 45 years.

Lord Callanan (Shadow Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office Minister, Conservative)

My Lords, like others, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for bringing this Bill forward. In the previous debate, the noble Lord, Lord Norton, said that the purpose of Private Members’ Bills was to provoke a debate. The noble Baroness can certainly congratulate herself on having done that. We have heard many passionate and strongly argued positions on both sides and across parties, which has been fascinating.

She will not be surprised to hear that, unfortunately, these Benches cannot support the Bill. While we recognise the deep concerns and strong convictions on this matter, we must ensure that any action taken aligns with our principles and our long-standing foreign policy commitments. The Conservative Party has consistently supported a two-state solution that guarantees security and stability for both the Israeli and the Palestinian people. We agree that it is imperative to offer the people of the West Bank and Gaza the political perspectives of a credible route to statehood and a future of peace and prosperity. However, we maintain that the recognition of a Palestinian state must come at a time when it is most conducive to that peace process. That moment has not yet arrived. Recognition also cannot be the start of the process.

As many others have said, the horrific atrocities committed on 7 October remain fresh in the memory. Hostages are still being held by Hamas and, until recently, Hamas was still being fought in many parts of Gaza. Every effort must be made to ensure that every single hostage is returned safely to their family. This is a matter not merely of diplomacy but of fundamental human rights. Furthermore, any path to peace requires that Hamas no longer governs Gaza and that its capacity to launch attacks against Israel is decisively removed and ended. Ensuring the dismantling of terrorist networks is an unavoidable and necessary step towards a lasting resolution.

If the Palestinian Authority is to take on an expanded role, it becomes even more imperative that it implements the most significant programme of reform in its history. Such reforms must include fundamental changes to welfare and education policies that leave so much to be desired. Transparency, accountability and good governance must be at the heart of any PA Administration. Democratic progress must also be demonstrable. As we have said before, we would also like to see Israel take steps, including in relation to frozen funds and West Bank settlements. We want the UK to be actively involved in efforts to expand the Abraham accords, which we hope can be restarted.

Finally, it is worth pointing out that it is very unusual for a state to be recognised through an Act of Parliament. Usually, the royal prerogative is used to recognise states. Like others, I very much look forward to the response of the Government and the Minister.

Baroness Chapman (Foreign Office Minister, Labour)

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for presenting this Bill and thank all noble Lords who have contributed to today’s debate. It was good to meet the noble Baroness to discuss her Bill in advance of this debate. I thank her for her time. As the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, said, Private Members’ Bills provide an important and helpful opportunity to debate these important issues. Before I address the Bill directly, I will speak to some of the issues around the ceasefire, Gaza and the West Bank today.

The current agreement to end the fighting in Gaza is a moment of opportunity after more than a year of agony. We must thank Qatar, Egypt and the US for their tireless mediation efforts and take comfort that British citizen Emily Damari and UK-linked Eli Sharabi have been freed after their horrific ordeal at the hands of Hamas, and that the body of UK-linked Oded Lifshitz has been returned to his family.

The ceasefire remains fragile. We need all parties to sustain the ceasefire and deliver the agreement in full, with the release of all hostages, and move it through the phases and into a lasting peace. The ceasefire agreement is just the first step in ensuring long-term peace and security for Israelis, Palestinians and the wider region. Long-term stability will require a political process and a political horizon towards a two-state solution. Only that, over time, will ensure the long-term peace and security of both Palestinians and Israelis.

Even with the welcome ceasefire, the humanitarian situation in Gaza remains desperate. We are gravely concerned by recent Israeli restrictions on aid and electricity supplies entering Gaza. Aid should not be used as a political tool, and we urge Israel to lift restrictions immediately to ensure that the supply of humanitarian assistance and access to essential services in Gaza continue. The Foreign Secretary made this clear to Israel’s Foreign Minister during their call on 5 March. Israel must work closely with the UN and all partners to facilitate a surge in aid, including reinstating commercial deliveries and allowing more types of goods into Gaza to support health and shelter needs and the resumption of basic services.

We have been clear that Gazans must now be allowed to return to their homes and rebuild. We do not support any forcible removal of people from or within Gaza or the West Bank, or any reduction in the territory of the OPTs.

The Foreign Secretary, along with the Foreign Ministers of France, Germany and Italy, has welcomed the Arab initiative of a recovery and reconstruction plan for Gaza. It shows a realistic path to the reconstruction of Gaza and improvement of the catastrophic living conditions for Palestinians living there. These plans must be based on a solid political and security framework that is acceptable to, and provides long-term peace and security for, both Israelis and Palestinians. We are committed to working with the Arab initiative, the Palestinians and Israel to develop these plans, including on security and governance.

Our funding for the Occupied Palestinian Territories this financial year has included a £2 million uplift through a contribution to the World Bank to deliver water and energy infrastructure across the OPTs. This will support early recovery efforts. We are funding two roles within the Palestinian Authority’s recovery, reconstruction and development team, strengthening the PA’s capacity to plan for the next phase in Gaza.

On the West Bank, we have made clear our serious concern at recent Israeli military activity. Israel must show restraint, ensure that the scale of its operations is proportionate to the threat posed and minimise the loss of civilian lives and property. Stability and security are essential at this time. Settlement expansion has reached record levels in the last 12 months. The Israeli Government seized more of the West Bank in 2024 than in the previous 20 years. We are clear that settlements are illegal under international law, present an obstacle to peace and threaten the viability of a two-state solution.

In October last year, we sanctioned three outposts and four entities that have supported and sponsored violence against communities in the West Bank. We will look at all options to take tougher action. The Prime Minister has been clear with Prime Minister Netanyahu that the Israeli Government must take greater action to hold violent settlers to account and to clamp down on those who seek to inflame tensions.

I turn now to the issue of recognition. As many noble Lords have pointed out, Palestinian statehood is the right of the Palestinian people. It is not the gift of any neighbour, and it is vital that the people of the West Bank and Gaza are given the political perspective of a credible route to a Palestinian state and a new future. This needs to be irreversible. That is why this Government unequivocally support a two-state solution that guarantees security and stability for both the Israeli and the Palestinian people. That is why our long-standing position is that we will recognise a Palestinian state at a time that is most conducive to the peace process. I note the route suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and I thank him for his constructive approach. I am not, as he would expect, in a position to endorse his idea, but I thank him for making that suggestion.

However, my noble friends and I do not support this Bill today. This is not because we do not support the goal—as many have said, this Government strongly support recognition of the state of Palestine—but because imposing a timetable on this decision would hinder our ability to achieve the goal of a sustainable two-state solution, as my noble friend Lord Katz said. We must take this step when the time is right. Meanwhile, we will work tirelessly alongside our international partners to support a process towards sustainable peace.

This financial year, the UK has provided £129 million to help alleviate the suffering, including £41 million for UNRWA, which is supporting the Occupied Palestinian Territories and Palestinian refugees in the region. UK support has meant that more 500,000 people have received essential healthcare; 647,000 people have received food; and 284,000 people have improved access to water, sanitation and hygiene services. We are working with partners to support the surge in humanitarian aid to Gaza that is needed now.

It is in the long-term interests of both Israelis and Palestinians that this ceasefire holds and progresses through each of its phases, and that both sides take this opportunity to begin the process of rebuilding a pathway to peace and stability. Peace will be sustainable only if both sides recommit to a renewed peace process resulting in a two-state solution, with a safe and secure Israel alongside a viable and sovereign Palestinian state. This Government are committed to doing all we can both to support this and to recognise a Palestinian state, which we will do not at the end of a process, as some have suggested, but at the point at which recognition by the United Kingdom would have the greatest effect in bringing about the peace and stability that every speaker this afternoon wishes so dearly to see.

Baroness Northover (Bill introducer, Liberal Democrat)

I thank everyone for their contributions, including the one that we have just heard from the Minister. Strangely enough, I particularly appreciate noble Lords’ support, but here I single out how amazing it was to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, a Kindertransport child whose wise, generous and constructive contributions in Parliament over so many years bring him now to support my Bill. I am humbled and honoured that he did so.

I have been in this House for many years. I can hardly count the number of Ministers who have held the line, “Recognised but not now”, but have, when out of government, often deeply regretted that action on this was not taken. So I certainly hope that this Government will move forward, as the Minister indicated. The instability in the region and globally, which is terribly affecting Israelis as well as Palestinians, demands that this is more than urgent.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.